naming standards for nuns

Question

During the Clean-a-Thon, I came across a number of woman who had extra names in their first name box or names in parentheses which appeared to be the name given to them when they became nuns.  Should that name go in the nickname section or in the biography?  How should one handle this when it occurs?

Here's some other examples:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ivers-51

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Hungerman-5

Comments

Unfortunately in English 'nickname' doesn't seem serious enough for a nun's religious name. Nevertheless it still seems the best place for a name by which someone was known which wasn't an official birth name.

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I know what you mean, but there is no other alternative to me. I thought it should go in the nickname as well.

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I like to think of "Formal First Name" and "Preferred First Name" as analogous to LNAB and CLN.  In other words, I would use the first name on her birth certificate as her Formal First Name and her religious name as "Preferred First Name".  I don't think there is any need to be concerned with the Nicknames field - I reserve that for actual nicknames (like John who was known as Johnny) and also for spelling variants.  I consider the value of the Nicknames and OLN fields to be mainly to enhance search capabilities.

Of course, this does not necessarily produce the desired listing of the name when it appears here.  The "necessarily" in that sentence is because the name is formed differently for display in different contexts, so it may sometimes be as you desire to see it and other times seem undesirable.

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Hadn't considered that, Gaile, but it does make sense.  I was wondering if Wikitree had any policy regarding how to input a nun's name.  Sounds like people are doing it differently.  Maybe a specific method should be added to the naming policy.

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Hello, Carolyn!

For the most part, I agree with Gaile. To me, it is simple logic.

Here is a summary of my views:

Sister (I would not abbreviate it) should go in the Prefix box - it is, essentially, her job title.

The birth given names, LNAB, and any other surnames used should go in their appropriate fields, as Gaile has explained.

The given name(s) used as a Sister should go in the Preferred Name.

The only problem field I see is Current Last Name, as she may not be/have been using one as a Sister. But that can default to LNAB or to the most recent surname that she used.

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This makes the name show up as:

Sister Ann Catherine (Mary Pearl) Ivers S.C.N.

Which does not put the Sister in the right place

Answer 1

Well, after looking through the Help Index, I finally found the relevant guidelines:

Prefix field in general:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Name_Fields#Prefix

Titles attached to alternate name:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Name_Fields#_note-1 see item 2

So, in the case of nuns (and similar circumstances), Sister should be part of the full name used as a Sister; that full Sister name will show in parentheses (if in Preferred Name field) or in quotes (if in Other Nicknames field) in the data section below the line of tabs, but not in the top name display.

Alas, we must compromise age-old genealogy standards to fit the internet!!

Comments

Thanks for finding and sharing this info, Lindy!

Answer 2

In my opinion, Sr. should NOT be entered in the prefix box. She is not "Sr. Bernadette." Bernadette is the only name that should be in the first name box. Middle iniital P should not be in the first name box, but rather in the Middle Name box. I believe Sr. Catherine Marie should be in the nickname field. I actually edited it to that format. However, now her profile appears as Bernadette P. Jordan, with no reference in the title to Sr. Catherine Marie. I first tried Sr. Catherine Marie as preferred name, but then that is how her profile appears, without mentioning Bernadette Jordan. The biography should be fleshed out, if possible regarding her entry into her vocation. If consensus decides a different approach, I would be happy to correct the names.

As an aside, the My Heritage sources are way too long. The bio should be rewritten, and if possible, replace the sources with familysearch sources.

Comments

I agree with you, Jim. I was working on Preferred Name errors and came across quite a few nuns. I entered their names as you did, in the Other Nicknames field.

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Thank you all for your input.  I agree the nickname box is the best choice, as well as something in the biography.

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Well in my opinion Sister (Sr) should not appear in any name field since it's not a name, it's an honorific title. I do understand how these names function and that nuns are referred to as "Sister X" but I'd still prefer Sister in the prefix field.

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I agree with Matthew that "Sister" should be in the prefix field. It is, essentially, a job title and is no different than "Rev." or "Dr." Furthermore, it is not a nickname.

For any nun who has a different given name from the name used as a nun, the nun name would go in the Preferred Name field.

Unfortunately, the current naming fields are insufficient to cover every situation properly.

And that's My Two Bennies!!

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Normally, I would agree about putting Sister in the prefix, but it would not show her proper name correctly, not her religious name correctly. For example, it would read Sister Beth Smith, when her nun's name might be Sister Mary Josephus and her birth name Beth Smith.

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That's what I mean, Carolyn, by my comment that the current naming fields are insufficient to cover every situation properly.

If we want to display the (preferred; would be useful for full birth name, too) name in a specific way, we need a single field to enter the entire name and to display it separately.

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I would put Sister (or Soeur) in the prefix field. For one thing, if you put it in the Nickname field it will trigger an error. In the prefix field it won't.

Then spell out the different names as you think they should appear, in the biography... we can't always fit everything into the data fields. With nobles and royals who were also nuns (and sometimes venerables or saints), it gets even more complicated.

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The issue with titles in the prefix field is also language. In Dutch and (as an example) Mr. is the abreviation for practicing Lawyer of Judge, it can also denote a schoolmaster. Not to confused with marital status which oh how so many people do. Everyone has an occupation, or most people. Some people have (had) more than one occupations. As I understood it the prefix field was meant for titles as Prof., Dr., Mr. (Lawyer). Other titles go into the suffix field I understood. Such as all the medals that one has received, also in the US II, IV, etc. or Sr, and Jr.

I would propose a complete rethink of the usage (and / or naming) of prefix, "nick"name, middle name and suffix fields.

Answer 3

Correct genealogical procedure is to list the birth name. Many genealogical programs accommodate the addition of  "also known as". Also an explanation should be placed in " notes " including reference points.

Comments

Thanks for your input, George.  I know that the formal birth name should be in the first, middle and LNAB boxes.  Just wasn't sure how to address the religious name given to nuns. Putting it in the category of "also known as" in Wikitree terms would mean adding it to the nickname box.  I also agree an explanation is in order in the bio.

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I agree, WikiTree does not handle " also known as "  very well. Many people use their middle name as given name. I guess the notes are the only real option.

Answer 4

I have a few nuns and priests profiles to adjust that keep popping up with db_errors for naming conventions. Has anything been agreed on what name fields to incorporate ?

Comments

Hello, Maggie!

I think the overall name fields guidelines cover this issue well enough.

If the word/name is used as a title (job, religious, educational, etc.), then it belongs in the Prefix field; if it is used as a nickname, it belongs in the Other Nicknames field.

Birth names belong in their fields: Proper First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name at Birth.

Names actually used and/or assumed later in life go in their fields: Preferred Name; Current Last Name; Other Last Name(s). Some of these alternate names may also belong in the Other Nickname field.

Just determine for each individual how his/her names were used; then you should be able to allocate each name to its correct field. Don't worry that it may create a db-error; you can just mark it false or simply ignore it.

Answer 5

I don't see why Sister Mary Pearl can't all go in the Nickname box since we do the same with titles like John, The Elder (The Elder going in nickname). And I have seen something similar on several titled war veteran profiles.

It would produce an error that needs to be marked as false, but it would create a correct version of the name since Sister belongs with her new name and not with her LNAB.

It would look like this:

Ann Catherine (Sister Mary Pearl) Ivers

Which is correct for her name situation

 

Comments

Hello, Emma!

My view is that, for a nun, Sister is her job title; therefore it belongs in the Prefix field.

Elder can also be a title, and should go in the Prefix field when used as such.

Elder/the Elder and Sister can also be used as nicknames. So it is important to determine if they are being used as titles or as nicknames; that determination will tell you which field to use.

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I went back and forth whether this was a title or an occupation (even going so far as to Google it).  This is a tricky one!  I agree with you on-how it is used determines which box is appropriate.

The difficulty is, her name became Sister Mary Pearl, but by putting Sister in the Prefix box, it looks like her name is Sister Ann Catherine which is not correct.

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You need to change the entries in the Proper First Name and Preferred Name fields, Emma.

Put Sister in the Prefix field.

Enter Ann in the Proper First Name field and enter Catherine in the Middle Name field (or you can put Ann Catherine in the Proper First Name field if it is considered a combined first name).

Enter Mary Pearl in the Preferred Name field.

Try the above and then let us know if her name displays correctly!!

P.S. The profile will still display a surname, I think; I don't think we can avoid that unless we consider Pearl as a surname (Current Last Name), with just Mary as the Preferred Name.

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It still makes the name show up as:

Sister Ann Catherine (Mary Pearl) Ivers S.C.N.

Which does not put the Sister in the right place since she is not Sister Ann Catherine

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Apparently, that's just how it is set to display; that way, we have to explain everything in the biography!

You can move Sister from the Prefix field to the Preferred Name field; that should give you a display like this:

Ann Catherine (Sister Mary Pearl) Ivers S.C.N.

I think that is as close as the current coding can get to what you want to see displayed.

BTW, you should delete the suffix, since that is meant for Suffix at Birth (someone should change the name of the field!!). Her name would then be displayed as Ann Catherine (Sister Mary Pearl) Ivers, which I think is more in line with WikiTree standards.

Sorry to have lead you on a wild-goose chase, Emma!

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Which I think brings me back to my original suggestion :-)  What does S.C.N. Stand for anyway?

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This makes more sense to me as it looks now:

Ann Catherine (Sister Mary Pearl) Ivers

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I understand the objections of those who want the name to display correctly but, right now, the framework is slightly inadequate to handle these names correctly. The choice is between mangling the data so it looks better or preserving the integrity of the data and accepting it won't display correctly - for now. If we put Sister as a prefix it may well be possible to fix the way names are displayed later. If we put Sister in a name field it will never be possible to remedy.

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I don't see why.  Anna Catherine is her birth name and Sister Mary Pearl is her other name--not born with.

WikiTree naming conventions call for putting titles in the other names box and I don't see this any differently.  I am not convinced that Sister is a prefix.  In many cases Sister is used as a title and not an occupation.

(4. OTHER NICKNAMES: This is where their title belongs (i.e. ‘King of England’, ‘Queen of Scots’, ‘Lord of Dunmow’, etc.). Titles may include numbers (i.e. either ‘Earl of Arundel’ or ‘3rd Earl of Arundel’ is acceptable). This is also where any actual nicknames (i.e., ‘The Younger’, ‘The Poor’, ‘Talvas’, ‘The Loyal’, ‘Copped Hat’, etc.) and translations such as Eléonore, Leonor, Eleanor belong. Do not put any nicknames in quotations. Separate multiple names with a comma. Do not list occupations, such as 'Sheriff of Nottingham' or 'Knight'.)

As to this making it difficult to fix for the future, I don't see this as any different than people who have what the system thinks are suffixes as middle names for instance--which is a false error.  I have run across middle names such as Major and Junior.  But then again--I am not a techie so I don't know what is good for the database system from a technical standpoint.

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Which I think brings me back to my original suggestion :-)  What does S.C.N. Stand for anyway?

commented by Emma MacBeath

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As this thread has already been bumped, and I don't see an answer to this question -- SCN stands for the Sisters of Charity of Nazareth, which is the order Mary Pearl Ivers (her birth name), and her sister Lillian Ivers (her birth name) joined.  They became, respectively, Sister Ann Catherine, and Sister Helen Maureen.  It appears they kept their last names after profession.

To have the name display reasonably, the two forenames go in the first name field, mark no middle name, and the religious name, including "Sister" (so to avoid her name displaying as "Sister Mary Pearl" which she was not) in either the preferred name field, or the nicknames field -- although, I am of the same school as Gaile Connolly in believing nicknames are things such as "Red", or "Bluey", or "Johnny", or "Sis" (stated elsewhere in this thread).

(I believe suffixes other than only those from birth are now acceptable, providing the person actually used them, and they are not something being assigned post mortem.)